Some masked federal agents in DC yesterday refused to give their names or even say what agency they worked for. This exchange followed:
Bystander: "You guys are ruining this country, you know that, right?" Agent: "Liberals already ruined it."
I see this kind of stuff constantly now. Some people defend Trump and say he is making things great. But many – more, in the stuff that makes it into my feeds – respond to any criticism with "it's no worse than Obama" or "it's what liberals deserve for what they did" or "Trump can't wreck the economy it's already wrecked" and so on.
In particular, any suggestion that Trump is notably corrupt gets a lot of "you're another" responses. I recently said something to an acquaintance about Trumpian criminality and he responded, "So long as people in Congress can trade stocks they're all insider traders who should be in prison." Many Americans believe that the government has been for sale for decades, if not centuries, and the Democrats are just mad because Trump is better at it.
The awfulness of America in this moment is downstream from a widespread sense that things have been so awful for so long that complaining about particular awful acts is a pointless waste of time.
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Many Americans believe that the government has been for sale for decades, if not centuries, and the Democrats are just mad because Trump is better at it.
That feeling itself isn't new. It has persisted more or less constantly for generations.
In 1960, Pete Seeger gave his first performance of a newly written song, and the opening line (and the song's title) sent the crowd into peals of laughter: "What A Friend We Have In Congress".
People 65 years ago KNEW that Congress was corrupt. They knew that our politicians were taking bribes, and making shady deals, and routinely breaking the law, and continuously lying to their faces. They understood that all of these things were "just the way things are", and they cheerfully tolerated that fact. Because there was also an implicit understanding that the corruption would be kept to a "reasonable" level, and that in exchange for people turning a blind eye, the men in power would do a "reasonable" job of running the country and ensuring a "reasonable" modicum of prosperity and stability for the average person. (Less for women and minorities, of course, but still...)
What has changed in the modern day is that the men in power no longer feel compelled to hold up their end of the bargain. They no longer CARE if the common person turns a blind eye to their actions, because they no longer fear suffering any meaningful consequences from mere commoners. They believe (and I think rightly) that they are more or less untouchable at this point, and can get away with anything, just so long as they don't resort to too much infighting amongst themselves.
Thus when the rich gamble recklessly with the entire economy and crash it, the banks and brokers all get bailed out, and the common people foot the bill. When a global pandemic cripples the economy, the politicians make a big show of earmarking huge amounts of money to "help small businesses", but then nearly all of it gets siphoned up by giant corporations instead, and the rest of us are left holding the bag. Et cetera.
"The awfulness of America in this moment is downstream from a widespread sense that things have been so awful for so long that complaining about particular awful acts is a pointless waste of time."
I think this is specifically a MAGA and MAGA-aligned way of looking at things. Also the Left--but the Left has no real power or relevance in this country except to furnish the Right with talking points. Effectively, this sort of negativity is a right-wing thing. Procedural, centrist liberal types like me thought the country was doing great under Obama. We think it's being ruined now specifically by Trump and his side. Incidentally, I think Dems like me reacting to Trump is the reason pessimism numbers are up. It's not because Trump just disagrees with us. I didn't feel this way under Reagan. Trump and his people really are going about things in a different way and changing the country profoundly, whatever analogies one can find in the past. They are, as John suggests, very good at what they do. By the same token, I would say that what's going on in the country right now isn't factionalism, it's the victory of one faction.
the Democrats are just mad because Trump is better at it.
as is currently being discussed in the Constitutional thread, a lot of what Trump is doing was done before by Democrats, but they liked it then. Dems threatening to withhold funds from universities was, in G Verloren's masterful phrase, "guidance". When Trump does it, it's a gross constitutional violation.
19th century American politics was an open sewer. Election fraud was rampant, even openly discussed. Nothing has changed except the people that are alive now are angry because they're alive now.
@Anonymous
Ah, there you are! I take this opportunity to ask again: Since, one way or another, many problems (or maybe I should call them something neutral, like "phenomena") have been around for a long time, what would you say is worthy of serious and earnest attention?
Also, yes, Dems did a lot of the stuff he's doing before. But I still think Trump is changing the country profoundly. The liberal time is passing, for better or worse. I mean, I think it's worse, but that's just self-description, and historically irrelevant. Do you, Anonymous, see no change?
There are problems and issues at all times, and they are mostly the same problems. You deal with them as you can. There is no magic system coming to save us all and wipe away all the problems. We are not living in the WORST OF ALL TIMES because we are alive now. It's silly.
I see changes, sure, and I don't agree with much of what Trump does. What annoys me, though, is when, like with the Title IX stuff, Trump does something that a Dem did and suddenly it's fascism hitler shitting on the constitution. Nobody was screaming it's the death of the Constitution when Obama did it. It's made me realize that politics basically comes down to, "Good when my guy does it, bad when your guy does it". Laws for thee but not for me.
Mass immigration is the hill the Left has chosen to die on. It elected Trump twice, Meloni, Wilders, it got the National Rally the popular vote, and on and on. The sooner the Left wakes up from this fever dream the better. And no, enforcing existing immigration law is not fascism, sorry. Having open borders is just begging for a Trump to come along.
Open borders will never be popular, decriminalizing theft will never be popular, defunding the police was a far Leftist fantasy. The Dems tried to change the country profoundly and they ended up electing Trump. Will they learn from this? No.
@Anonymous
Interesting. You'll probably think this is bullshit, but I would distinguish between Obama and the Left. Obama wasn't consistent--what leader in power is?--but he basically governed as a centrist neoliberal. The Left found him a big disappointment. He did not advocate open borders or socialized medicine, for instance, but incrementalist, proceduralist change around the margins, like DACA and Obamacare. People on the right saw these things as radical socialism--and loved their mockups of Obama with a Hitler mustache--but I think you would agree that that was hysteria similar to what you accuse people like me of now. And much of the Left saw no real difference between Obama and the Right.
As for the Left itself, mostly, it seems to me, they've provided talking or rage points to the Right and others. Indeed, many, many anti-Trumpists can't seem to get over how much they hate the Left; if you scratch the surface, that's were the passion is. Honestly to me it looks like a somewhat pointless obsession, especially now.
One can find all the analogous actions one likes in past administrations. To me, there's something wild, shameless, and manic in Trump and his followers that is different and important. I think it's also important, and different, that since the last election he's met virtually no effective opposition. The Dems and centrist, procedural liberalism look to me well and truly dead, or at least moribund.
Well said. I feel much the same.
The one upshot is that once his term is over, the Republicans have no one else to follow up with up.
I don't particularly have any faith that the Democrats, per se, will capitalize on that to swing things back toward normality, but perhaps by that point people will be fed up enough with both parties to seriously consider third options, for once. I'd personally love to see someone create a new party focused on bi-partisan governance, anti-corruption efforts, electoral reform, and investment in infrastructure of all kinds (including housing), but who knows what we'll see in a few years time.
I wasn't saying Obama was a big Lefty, he wasn't. I'm saying he used withholding federal money from universities if they didn't buckle under and follow a policy, and everybody nodded and said, "Good!". Trump does it and suddenly he's sodomizing the Constitution.
Trump and Obama were both always going to be disappointments because they were made out to be semi-deities. I know you probably don't remember but there was some real gushing over Obama back then.
https://www.timesherald.com/2012/01/01/hollywoods-take-on-obama-less-gushing-this-time/
It was like he was going to cure the sick and heal the world. Remember he won the Nobel Peace Prize after 9 months in office and even Democrats couldn't really say why? I remember people talking about him like he was some Messiah, "Yes, we can!" and all that. Of course it was never going to work out because people projected all their wishes on him and he was never going to be able to do everything they wanted, and neither can Trump.
I thought the Obama will save us people were goofy and misguided and I think the Maga people are goofy and misguided. I don't project my ego on politicans and I'm liberal centristy so I don't get either of them. I think the farther you are right or left, the more you're going to think the opposite side is completely insane. And like you said, the Right is going, "Obama's a Communist!" and the Left is going, "Really? Where??" It also makes me realize that 95% of politics is tribalism. Two politicians can do exactly the same thing and it will be applauded or condemned as heresy depending purely on the party of the politician.
The Dems and centrist, procedural liberalism look to me well and truly dead, or at least moribund
The problem is they've spent the last many years mostly being "We're not Trump" and slowly drifting left on a lot of stuff not popular with the voters in general, "criminal justice reform", open borders, etc. I would think they could, say, put forth ideas on a reasonable immigration policy, but the problem with many on the lib/left side is Race trumps, no pun intended, everything. Any discussion of any limits on immigration whatsoever is Racism, end of discussion.
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