tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post7865867287831468765..comments2024-03-28T18:32:05.933-04:00Comments on bensozia: Race Wars in Medieval StudiesJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01037215533094998996noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-33555747219125082102022-06-06T19:54:33.593-04:002022-06-06T19:54:33.593-04:00My Ukrainian mother did her DNA test awhile back. ...My Ukrainian mother did her DNA test awhile back. it came back as highly predictable—except for the 2% North African. In all those generations prior to 1908, I find it all too believable that those genes would have made it up the rivers to the hinterlands of Lviv.Katyanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-82597186329110263142022-06-01T11:43:42.575-04:002022-06-01T11:43:42.575-04:00Are the Stormfront types trying to claim the 18th ...Are the Stormfront types trying to claim the 18th century as well? I'd rather not look there to find out.BGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15650718276049777977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-19519637976787670492022-05-31T19:45:58.098-04:002022-05-31T19:45:58.098-04:00@David - My serious impression is what you alluded...@David - My serious impression is what you alluded to, that for most medieval Europeans skin color was one indication of "otherness," not necessarily the most important. Some of them knew that Egyptians and Tatars looked different from Europeans. But I don't think there was much focus on race as the main distinction until the Portuguese voyages to black Africa. And therefore, I would say, it doesn't make much sense to talk about "race."Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01037215533094998996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-13652670972720438372022-05-31T10:04:25.932-04:002022-05-31T10:04:25.932-04:00I think it depends on how you define "race,&q...I think it depends on how you define "race," and what you're looking for. If you're interested (one is tempted to say "only" or "merely") in a US-oriented black v. white distinction, you probably won't find much on that in, say, 13th-century Saxony. But you'll find scads of references to Slavs in Germany, to nomadic Asians in a place like Hungary, and to Muslims and Jews almost everywhere (whether the Muslims or Jews were physically present or not)--all of these considered very much "other" in a quasi-racial way (the religious distinctions were not only religious, as is clear from the suspicion and name-calling directed toward converts, at least in Spain, which later, of course, issues in articulated ideas about identity transmitted in the blood).<br /><br />There are certainly plenty of Spanish references to blacks, starting at least with the Almohad ruler's bodyguard of chained-together blacks at Las Navas de Tolosa (I'm sure there's a debate about who these guys "really" were, whether they were chained, etc.; but I think the concept is clear). There's a "guild of black Christians" in Barcelona; I don't know what this was about or precisely when it dates to, but I'd be surprised if the designation wasn't, so to speak, phenotypical. And there's the famous image of Mansa Musa on the Cresques map. In general, Spanish art from I think the late twelfth century starts depicting Muslims as different in appearance, with hooked noses and dark (often strangely bluish) skin.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14456987412710878404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-40577444984009462212022-05-31T06:49:08.885-04:002022-05-31T06:49:08.885-04:00@G-Sure, there could have been many more black peo...@G-Sure, there could have been many more black people in southern Europe than are recorded in our sources. But in a course for undergraduates, how much attention should you devote to something that no one bothered to record? My courses were always based on readings of sources, including all discussions; without a source, there's nothing to discuss.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01037215533094998996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-13491926388459781042022-05-30T12:49:11.148-04:002022-05-30T12:49:11.148-04:00There is a web site called Black Central Europe th...<i>There is a web site called Black Central Europe that collects evidence for black people in the German-speaking lands before the twentieth century. They have many sources for the period after 1700, when Europe was opening to the world. For 1000-1500 they have exactly twenty, half of which are questionable. ... As for actual black people in Central Europe, I am not sure there have documented a single one.</i><br /><br />What about the limited nature of surviving documents? And what about the selection bias of a society whose record-keepers were concerned almost wholly with the minority elite?<br /><br />Sure, it's doubtful that there were ever a large numbers in Europe, especially in Central Europe. But surely there could have been substantial numbers in Southern Europe, and yet they went unrecorded in the same way most people in Europe went unrecorded because they were commoners?<br /><br />How many African sailors and merchants must have been present in the Mediterranean - not just North African Arabs, Berbers, etc, but even some number of sub-saharan individuals? Gold and other goods came north from Mali; slaves came up the Nile and along the Red Sea - surely not all of that wealth changed hands into the possession of Middle Eastern or North African middlemen first? <br /><br />If at least some number of Vikings were sailing all the way around Western Europe or down the river-roads of the Kievan 'Rus to bring their wares to Byzantium personally, why couldn't or wouldn't some Malian merchants similarly cross the Sahara and then take a relatively leisurely boat trip east from Oran, or Bejaia, or Madhia, or Tripoli to Constantinople (or dozens of other major trade destinations in Europe), accompanying their own goods the entire way to cut out the middle men and make a greater profit?<br /><br />Would anyone have any great reason to create historical records about such people? If a boatload of Malian gold docked in Lisbon or Valencia or Marseille, would anyone bother to write about the black skinned sailors manning it? And even if they did, would they not be extremely likely to just describe them as "moors" and leave it at that? Those sailors must have gotten shore leave, must have spent their pay in the local markets and brothels, must have contributed their genetics to at least a portion of the local populace, no?<br /><br />To return to my earlier comparison, we surely can't find 20 reliable historical references to individually named Norsemen in Byzantium, but we still can infer that some decent number of them were present there, not just as Varangian Guards but also as common merchants, sailors, etc. Just because it wasn't recorded doesn't mean they weren't there, as you would logically expect given the trade links between the two parts of the world. You're an archaeologist - you know full well that written records alone tell us relatively little about the past, particularly before the invention of the printing press, and almost exclusively focus on elites.<br /><br />None of this is to make any actual claim as to how many people of which ethnicities were in Europe, of course - it just to note the possibility, and that we don't actually know. Of course, the same argument can even be made in reverse - who knows how many white Europeans there were in sub-saharan Africa? Not many, surely, and almost certainly not recorded by name, if even at all - but it seems within reason to think that you could find a Spanish trader in Timbuktu, or a Venetian sailor in Aden, depending on when you looked.G. Verlorennoreply@blogger.com