tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post639863575896278542..comments2024-03-28T18:32:05.933-04:00Comments on bensozia: Middle Earth, Hogwarts, and Modern SocietyJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01037215533094998996noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-81619052878562972542017-06-30T07:53:23.432-04:002017-06-30T07:53:23.432-04:00Le Guin is one of my favorite authors. I found Th...Le Guin is one of my favorite authors. I found <i>The Dispossessed</i> ifascinationg with an interesting critique of anarchic and statist societies. Strong points that there can be no such thing as an anarchist society and that democracies can be authoritarian. <br /><br />Alfred Bester wrote <i>Stars my Destination</i> and <i>The Demolished Man,</i> two late 1950's SF novels on many top 10 SF lists. Both are good psychological stories that wreak of the sexism of the times. I haven't come across too many books that are quite so dismissive of women.<br /><br />I admit to being a fantasy fan. There's a lot of good Fantasy out there now, great storytellers telling great stories with sophisticated characters living in fascinating worlds. The genre is quite alive. And there are some great female characters in the genre too. Not the warrior queen who challenges all comers, but females who use their wit, intelligence, stealth, and political sophistication to not only survive but thrive in male dominated societies. <br /><br />Examples:<br /><br />-- The many strong female characters in the Great fantasy series <i>Malazan Book of the Fallen</i> series by Steven Erikson.<br /><br />-- The lead female characters in Brandon Sanderson's <i>The Stormlight Archive</i> series.<br /><br />-- The princess turned queen (and a number of other strong female characters) in the Anthony Ryan's <i>Raven's Shadow</i> series.<br /><br />-- Arista in Michael Sullivan's <i>The Riyria Revelations</i>.<br /><br />-- And the female leads in any of N.K. Jemisin's series. (Jemisin narrates one of her female lead's chapters in second person.)<br />Shadowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05353532874773316117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-37186975154527082422017-06-30T00:48:08.057-04:002017-06-30T00:48:08.057-04:00A hearty second to your recommendation of Left Han...A hearty second to your recommendation of Left Hand of Darkness.<br /><br />I know I read books 4 and 5 of Earthsea but do not really remember them. But then I tend not to be a huge fantasy reader. I wonder if that stems in part from some not-quite conscious recognition of the the elitism (and often sexism) inherent in most fantasy novels.<br /><br />Oddly, for years in the 60's and 70's I had a subscription to Fantasy and Science Fiction Magazine... where I read Steven King, among other authors, and of course Venus on the Half-Shell, by Kilgore Trout. (Balanced by a subscription to Analog, where I read Dune.)<br /><br />Straight science fiction (SF, *not* "sci fi," to true afficionados back in the day!) seemed to have less of an issue with the elitism, and indeed often showed the failures of both aristocratic and meritocratic elitist systems. But when SF became bizarre rather than straightforward, I lost my taste for it.pootrsoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05975929246429466067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-77929197480959933552017-06-29T07:44:46.130-04:002017-06-29T07:44:46.130-04:00Hmm, I forgot The Book of the Dun Cow, which I lov...Hmm, I forgot The Book of the Dun Cow, which I loved; it dropped off my list partly because women I have recommended it to said it was horribly sexist. And yes there are lots of humorist fantasy novels that are not very aristocratic. But they will never match epic fantasy in my heart.<br /><br />The one pc fantasy I really love is the last installment of Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea, The Other Wind. Some of you may not know that LeGuin added two later books to the original trilogy. Tehanu, in 1990, which I did not like for just the reasons we have been discussing, and then The Other Wind in 2001. I *loved* The Other Wind but I don't recommend it much because you can't really read it without reading Tehanu, which I found preachy and irritating. Incidentally I also love The Left Hand of Darkness, which is at its heart a feminist experiment, but one that I think works brilliantly; it is generally classed as science fiction, though, so I would set it aside from this discussion. <br /><br />If you don't know Jonathan Stroud's Bartimaeus, that is an interesting approach; magic is controlled by an aristocratic ruling cabal of the usual sort, but much of the story is set among the resistance movement of non-magical commoners bent on overthrowing them.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01037215533094998996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-19150877226916442017-06-28T17:20:51.162-04:002017-06-28T17:20:51.162-04:00The Book of the Dun Cow?
Part of the issue is gen...The Book of the Dun Cow?<br /><br />Part of the issue is genre or mode. Epic is an essentially aristocratic genre, certainly in the mainline western tradition. But comedy is not. The decidedly comic, non-epic Discworld novels, I think, would qualify as non-aristocratic. Other than Lady Sybil, and Death and his family, I can't think of any positive aristo characters. There's Lord Vetinari, but he seems to me more of a benign dictator than a monarch of the Right Sort--in fact, several plots revolve around hidebound aristo ninnies trying to overthrow him because he's not the Right Sort. Hilarious hijinks ensue.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08993570411881726772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-68231842349597334002017-06-28T11:53:54.035-04:002017-06-28T11:53:54.035-04:00Interesting point about how aristocracy is one sor...Interesting point about how aristocracy is one sort of pride in one's own lineage, one's own people; that probably is one reason why people are so accepting of aristocracy and of family dynasties like the Bushes. <br /><br />Yes, the English tradition makes much of virtuous commoners, and Tolkien very deliberately made his hero a very modest sort of gentleman. There is a strong Christian strain here. But good commoners of course don't question the order and are very happy when the true heir becomes king.<br /><br />In a modern political context I *hate* aristocracy. But in reading fantasy I much prefer it to all the attempts I have encountered to create some sort of non-aristocratic magical world.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01037215533094998996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-18085395106115983232017-06-28T09:37:22.311-04:002017-06-28T09:37:22.311-04:00A few random remarks:
--while family pride, inher...A few random remarks:<br /><br />--while family pride, inheritance, exclusiveness, and identity are the core of aristocracy, these ideas are not peculiar to aristocrats. They can be quite demotic, and are in any case extremely ancient, more ancient than exclusively ranked society. I would say aristocracy and monarchy grow out of them, rather than the other way around. And they are part of what enable people to identify with aristocrats and monarchs in ways that many, at least, can't with mere meritocrats. Now that I think of it, I wonder if one couldn't divide people into those whose instincts make them love Tolkien, and those whose instincts make them love Ayn Rand.<br /><br />--with Tolkien, it's always important to remember the hobbits. Tolkien's ideas came out of the Little England movement, and the virtuous commoner is very much a part of that.<br /><br />--it's interesting that many aristo tales feature the hero whose ancestry is obscured, and so he is initially subject to hostility from the court crowd--until the true worth of his heritage shines through--a neat combination of up-by-the-bootstraps and family legacy. In this sense, Harry is Parzifal.<br /><br />--I get the impression from your posting history that you are, in fact, rather bothered by family exclusiveness and aristo snobbery. I remember a post in the last six months or so where you held up aristos no longer being able to have their servants beat up commoners as one of the great achievements of democratic modernity. So I would submit that it's not strictly true that you are "never bothered" by ideas different from your own. :) <br /><br />--Thinking of that last point, I'm struck that the modern fantasy tradition we've all read is very much a British one, with a British view of aristocracy that really glamorizes the whole idea of good, kind noble who knows how to treat his inferiors with respect, even affection, and sacrfices for the good of the whole. This is part of what differentiates Aragorn from Boromir, as well as the lesson Boromir learns, and is very much a Little England idea. In France and Spain, positive bonds between masters and servants are often treated as the province of beloved fool characters, like Don Quixote and Sancho, or Jacquouille and Godefroy in Les Visiteurs. (In Spain there's also a topos of the solemnly good but distant lord and his omnicompetent, manly-man commoner guardian.)Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08993570411881726772noreply@blogger.com