tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post4801657237360913627..comments2024-03-28T18:32:05.933-04:00Comments on bensozia: Masturbation and the Moral OrderJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01037215533094998996noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-44321606863492658662010-09-20T08:21:27.038-04:002010-09-20T08:21:27.038-04:00Some Catholic kings tried but were not "effec...Some Catholic kings tried but were not "effective" in imposing this monastic moral vision, but my experience is that the reason most were not effective "monasticizers" is because their moral vision was not genuinely, ardently monastic--certainly not before the Council of Trent. Their moral legislation was designed to go through traditionalist motions or to satisfy a noisy constituency or perhaps their own tepid guilt feelings. Yes there were exceptions--Louis the Pious, Charles the Lame and Robert the Wise of Naples, etc. After Trent, yes, things were different in some places (though Foucault didn't document the phenomenon ad nauseam; he mostly read a few pieces of declaratory legislation very closely). The revolutionaries were effective in large measure because they were so much more fanatical.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08993570411881726772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-39583826856139526972010-09-20T07:37:36.698-04:002010-09-20T07:37:36.698-04:00It is certainly true that modern revolutionaries h...It is certainly true that modern revolutionaries have been more effective in imposing their moral visions than Catholic kings. But many early modern kings had the impulse (as Foucault documented ad nauseam) and there were always bishops willing to help, which is why it troubles me that Catholic doctrine still contains all this "moral order" stuff. Franco's Spain, I gather, managed to make things very gray, although they never persuaded anyone to work hard. <br /><br />As an aside, this kind of thinking was very big in China, too; western newspapers call this Confucianism, but hints of the doctrine appear in the oldest Chinese sources.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01037215533094998996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-65096889571059319772010-09-19T23:16:22.902-04:002010-09-19T23:16:22.902-04:00To be fair to the Church, I doubt that Ms. O'D...To be fair to the Church, I doubt that Ms. O'Donnell uttered her words at the urging of a group of bishops who are on a campaign to impose monastic "moral order." In this case, she's really speaking for herself and her own private lunacy. These days, I think they're pretty happy if they can stay out of the scandal sheets for a month running, and fill more than half the places in a seminary class.<br /><br />And, to be fair to the old dynasts, few of them took moral legislation like this very seriously. ("Do you want to masturbate? For a small fee you can get a royal charter giving you the privilege . ..") The people who've really troubled the wider world trying to impose a monastic vision of life on everyone are the revolutionaries, from Cromwell to Robespierre to Che and Pol Pot.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08993570411881726772noreply@blogger.com