tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post4252968823291517903..comments2024-03-28T18:32:05.933-04:00Comments on bensozia: Dissatisfaction with Democracy in an Anti-Racist AgeJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01037215533094998996noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-73445578205587717112021-07-09T12:11:53.533-04:002021-07-09T12:11:53.533-04:00I don't know much about American politics or h...I don't know much about American politics or history, but I still much enjoyed your post. Shows you are conservative deep in your heart :Dszopenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02234132446740838968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-48174035918274498272021-07-05T09:36:48.729-04:002021-07-05T09:36:48.729-04:00Thinking further, I might say I would like there t...Thinking further, I might say I would like there to be room for the sort of balancing of Power against Power thinking of the Founders. In this conversation, the two Powers in our society we're considering are the liberal technocracy and its organized rationality on the one side, and the Right=the angry-populism-mobilized "people" on the other (which in practice is maybe about 40% of the electorate, hardly "the people" but very, very powerful and numerous). Each of these is dangerous if it gains an excess of power. At this moment in history, I would say Trump has given the latter forces an elan that makes them both unhinged and more dangerous than their rivals. In this situation, I don't think anti-democratic measures are going to help the liberals keep the Right populists from having too much power (again, unless one is the sort who thinks that taxes per se or all Justice Department investigations of local practice are acts of tyranny, in which case so be it).<br /><br />Incidentally, I don't think anyone actually trying to establish an empire in the Middle East would be a good idea. We've seen how that worked out when the US has tried it. I've long thought the best thing that could happen in the Middle East is for someone to put Valium in the water.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14456987412710878404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-606667804696944142021-07-04T15:28:01.826-04:002021-07-04T15:28:01.826-04:00I think that, at bottom, for better or worse, I sy...I think that, at bottom, for better or worse, I sympathize with the liberals I've described (as I suggested with the reference to 1st-century Judaism). Of the elements of the Anglo-American tradition, I tend to value the rule of law, personal freedom, and due process at law more than I do electoral democracy itself, taken in isolation. If I had to choose between due process at law or electoral democracy, there's no question I would take the first. I suppose that is why I'm less excited about the American Revolution than you. It's certainly why I was never bothered by the EU's non-democratic features (still less by the fact that its officials sometimes held dinners in Baroque chateaux). To put it yet another way, if I had to choose between an unelected, liberal technocracy, and a generation of elected rule by the likes of Trump, Bibi, or Nigel Farage, I'd choose the first, probably by going into exile (like those liberal Israelis of Berlin).<br /><br />I guess I would probably agree with O'Donnell that the Middle East was better off under the Persians or the Ottomans than it has been under the nation-state, including Israel, which has become a democracy of, by, and for a militant, sectarian nationalism. Likewise, in light of, say, Bela Kun, Admiral Horthy, the Arrow Cross Party, 40+years of Communist sclerosis, and now Orban, the Habsburgs start to look pretty good.<br /><br />All that said, I think the greatest threat to both democracy and good government in the US today is the right, not the left. I just don't see how leftist concern over racism is going to become a threat to American democracy. The left simply doesn't have the power to defy an American election (unless one regards the Justice Department suing red states when their elected legislatures pass anti-democratic legislation as itself anti-democratic, which I don't). But the possibility that, say, one or more Republican state legislatures would insist on awarding their state's presidential electoral votes to the Republican candidate regardless of the outcome in their state is, I think, very real, and much more dangerous than some leftists refusing to voice unalloyed pride in the Revolution.<br />Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14456987412710878404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-82811732301436015262021-07-04T13:40:07.569-04:002021-07-04T13:40:07.569-04:00That all seems fair to me; I think we agree on mos...That all seems fair to me; I think we agree on most of this. What do you, David think? I am intensely suspicious of all undemocratic regimes, even the EU, which I feel in my gut are bound to work against the people's interests. Even looking around the world at democracy's many failures, I still want it. I would rather have Trump in a democracy than dictator Obama. You?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01037215533094998996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-60572306095198162592021-07-04T12:25:34.318-04:002021-07-04T12:25:34.318-04:00I would add that I think one could liken at least ...I would add that I think one could liken at least some of today's liberals, including myself, to 1st century Hellenizing Jews: if freedom from Caesar meant rule by the Zealots, then they were happy to bring in Caesar.<br /><br />One thinks also of the feeling of many Athenians of the 4th century BC. Democracy might well seem to them to be beside the point: the best system of government was whatever brought in people like Pericles and kept out people like Alcibiades and Cleon. If Philip of Macedon looked like the closest thing on offer to Pericles, so be it. Yes, one can debate how all these ancient Greek persons should be characterized; my point is simply to illustrate the mentality of many of today's liberals. Democracy is working as long as it keeps out people like Trump or Bush II. One president like Bush II can be passed off as an episode. For Trump to follow so soon after looks like we've got a problem.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14456987412710878404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8304928500646903522.post-79513689922531757012021-07-04T11:39:47.705-04:002021-07-04T11:39:47.705-04:00A very interesting and fair essay. I would point ...A very interesting and fair essay. I would point out that democracy has always faced the issue that many people are only interested in it if the people they disagree with on fundamental issues are too weak to win. You can see this among the Founders, who were very concerned to ensure that "the mob" couldn't win, and many of whose spiritual heirs were deeply distressed by Jackson's presidency--as you are obviously aware. So dissatisfaction with a democracy that allows people one doesn't want to win, to in fact win, is an inherent concomitant of the form.<br /><br />I would add that the one unfair part of your essay is the polemical suggestion that folks like O'Donnell have a preference for tyrants ("better a tyrant who oppresses everyone"). No, this isn't really the issue. I think they could best be described as valuing personal freedom over democracy. This puts a tyrant who oppresses everyone out of the running.<br /><br />At bottom, what they want, I think, could best be described as an identityless, technocratic, administrative state that respects the rule of law and allows for plentiful individual freedom while confining people with strong sectarian/nationalist identities to small communities that can live under their own rules but can't keep cosmopolitans from roaming freely and enjoying the benefits of order, wealth, culture, global connections, etc. This is why, for example, there's a noticeable movement of liberal, cosmopolitan Jews who are leaving Israel and moving to Germany. This is also why such folks support the EU, which for them was supposed to be about allowing talented, well-educated people to live and work anywhere on the continent and have the administrative state protect them from local militants.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14456987412710878404noreply@blogger.com